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>> It is true that many immigrants don't understand what freedom is, or what
>> creates it. And it is true that there is a danger in numbers from the
>> preponderance of anti-freedom values in a culture. If you get enough Afghans
>> in one place, you get Afghanistan. Yes - they all think Australia is a great place - and it would be even better
if it were a little more like home. >> On the other hand, many immigrants bring a corresponding credit into the ledger
>> on the value of freedom, for several reasons. The first is that, coming from
>> countries where the machinery of government is far less effectual, and less
>> successful in efficient grasping, their experience of daily life is often
>> significantly freer and far more used to being self-reliant than in Australia,
>> where the people have developed a nasty habit of crying for the government to
>> provide anything and everything. Your experience has clearly been quite different from mine. The most
obvious counter example to this is in my own family - which contains people
from both Mainland China and
Taiwan. The Taiwanese value
wealth and freedom, and
like Australia because it offers both. They despise the high taxes, but grit
their teeth and bear it because Australia has many other benefits. The Chinese ones, however, see things quite differently. They see Australia as
a successful socialist state. Australia, they say, has achieved everything that
China tried to and failed - generous welfare, government paid hospitals, nice
houses etc. And they would be willing to tolerate the level of capitalism in
Australia for that benefit 'if only there was a little less of it ..'. Funny thing is - one of them is about to change her vote to John Howard
because she is so disgusted at the Gay Marriage / Civil Union thing going on in
the ACT. She thinks that homosexuality is the most disgusting thing imaginable,
and 'can't they see that this affects the next generation!!???' They are not bad people, but freedom loving they ain't. They don't
understand the real problem with socialism even though they
have suffered horrendously from it. Somehow the government just went bad,
somehow things just got corrupted along the way. But they firmly believe that
the institution of government can be redeemed. At the core, they are leftists. Hard working, and
honest - but leftists nonetheless. And they will always vote for bigger and
bigger government and never understand how they helped to create poverty and
despotism. >> * The fact that people including immigrants are entitled to
>> benefits from the welfare state, is not the fault of the individual, it's the
>> fault of the welfare state. These Chinese people are no more to blame for
>> their entitlements than are individual Australians. No-one said that receiving them was their fault. But demanding every more
welfare doesn't reflect well on their character. I too take whatever welfare
the government offers. But I have never espoused the view that the payments
should be higher. >> * If the family you criticise had taught their children to write in Chinese,
>> they would be liable to your criticism that they were resisting integration. Not at all. Why would I object to people learning a second language? I may well
get my own children to write Chinese. >> They probably didn't teach their children to write Chinese precisely because
>> they had no desire or intention for them to learn to write it, nor for them to
>> go back, because they wanted them to stay in Australia, go to school and learn
>> English, and grow up to get a job or have a business and live in Australia. That may be true, but it's irrelevant. Wanting something does not give you the
right to have it. I may teach my children that one day they will be rich - but
it wouldn't give them the right to be rich, would it? >> * As for the demanding affirmative action stuff, I think that is a bit of a
>> furphy - there is no evidence that they are demanding affirmative action. They
>> should not be blamed for the kind of collectivist policies that come more from
>> left-wing middle-class white Australians, than from Chinese refugees or
>> immigrants. Again, your experience is different from mine. I have heard many migrants
bitching about the lack of government-enforced affirmative action. >> * To say they are 'cheating' the system is a bit like saying someone is
>> 'cheating' on their tax. It begs the question of the rightful justification of
>> the laws they are infringing in the first place. For myself, I have nothing
>> against someone coming in to Australia, for no other reason than that they have
>> infringed the insanely complex and arbtirary immigration laws. 'Cheating' on your tax for ten years is not a justification for continuing to
do so for the rest of your life. Read my original article again - I was
criticizing the notion that they should be allowed to stay BECAUSE they had
been here so long. Whether they should be penalized for breaking Australian law
or not may be up for debate, but breaking Australian law is surely not a
justification for remaining. >> * There are real issues underlying immigration, which go to the very core of
>> the modern state. However it would seem to follow from first principles of
>> liberty that people should be free to come and go as they please, so long as
>> they are not hurting anyone else. And when the welfare state is totally abolished, and the new arrivals are
entitled to nothing that I own (including my share of roads, national parks
etc), then we can discuss it. Until then, the border is heavily supervised. >> Most objections to open borders are in fact
>> based on a fear that they immigrants will make non-viable the handouts of the
>> welfare state. That seems to me to be an argument against the welfare state,
>> not an argument against individual liberty. Talk about creating a strawman: Other people argue on the basis of X, and X
is irrational, therefore you are wrong. Pleeeeeaaase.
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